Monday, October 18, 2010

The Ever Present Poor


Jesu said that "The Poor you would have with you always". Does that mean that poverty eradication is a waste of time? Is the Poor and Poverty the same? What about Social exclusion it is a fancy name designed to cloud the real issues of poverty or is it a progressive name including the poor and more? Is povertyy and ecxuse for laziness and slothfulness? Do you agree that the dilligent willnot be poor?

42 comments:

  1. I think that for the most part, the two terms are often used interchangeably. It may be a matter of semantics. In fact, the noun that describes the state of being poor is "poverty". So it seems that the two cannot be separated from each other. I think that being poor is often used to mean that one does not have enough to lead a relatively normal life. Poverty is often used to identify the greatest extreme of being poor so that we could be poor but not necessarily in poverty. As I said before, semantics seems to be the issue here. However, semantics can only cover the issue of whether there is a difference between poverty and being poor as far as “layman” terminology goes.

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  2. According to Dr David Gordon, Professor of Social Justice (University of Bristol), the United Nations, however, defined the term poverty in a 1998 statement which was signed by heads of all UN agencies. The definition read, “Fundamentally, poverty is a denial of choices and opportunities, a violation of human dignity. It means lack of basic capacity to participate
    effectively in society. It means not having enough to feed and clothe a family, not having a school or clinic to go to; not having the land on which to grow one’s food or a job to earn one’s living, not having access to credit. It means insecurity, powerlessness and exclusion of individuals, households and communities. It means susceptibility to violence, and it often implies living on marginal or fragile environments, without access to clean water or sanitation”
    (UN Statement, June 1998 – signed by the heads of all UN agencies)

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  3. Another source defined poverty as “the total absence of opportunities, accompanied by high levels of undernourishment, hunger, illiteracy, lack of education, physical and mental ailments, emotional and social instability, unhappiness, sorrow and hopelessness for the future. Poverty is also characterized by a chronic shortage of economic, social and political participation, relegating individuals to exclusion as social beings, preventing access to the benefits of economic and social development and thereby limiting their cultural development”.

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  4. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  5. Well, Sir, I'll try to answer, even though it's not a theology class...hehehe...
    With regards to what Jesus said in Matthew 26:11, I think that poverty will exist as long as the "poor" is with us. Jesus said that they will always be amongst us, so it seems to infer that so will poverty. I think that while it may be possible to eradicate poverty from amongst us, it would be quite a task to stop people who are poor from moving to this extreme we call poverty.

    Before Jesus' time, Moses in Deuteronomy 15:11 said, "the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you , You shall open wide your hands to your brother, to your needy, and to your poor in your land". Jesus came several thousand years later and the poor was still there and now thousands of years later we are still here experiencing poverty. It seems to be an almost inevitable progression.

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  6. It's one thing to eliminate poverty from our society, but it's another thing to change the mindsets of people who have grown up in poverty. I really think that that will be the greatest challenge.

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  7. Albert Best
    CNC SO 200 Introduction to Sociology

    The words poor and poverty definitely do not have the same meaning. The dictionary meanings of the two terms are described below:
    Poor--lacking sufficient money to live at a standard considered comfortable or normal in a society : people who were too poor to afford a telephone.
    Poverty--the state of being extremely poor : thousands of families are living in abject poverty.
    • the state of being inferior in quality or insufficient in amount.

    Matthew 26:6-13, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? ( who had poured an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume on his head). She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.
    In Jesus’ reference of the poor it would seem that his focus was on describing the humility- the poor in spirit- a desire to have more from the master- Jesus the giver of all good things.

    Social exclusion is a fancy name designed to cloud the real issues of poverty. Conveniently some governments and societies put measures in place when the cries of the dispossessed have reached an unbearable level.

    Is poverty an excuse for laziness and slothfulness?
    I will not subscribe to that view because there are instances where children are conceived in poverty and they are never exposed to the opportunities that are put in place to help them come out of that state.

    Do you agree that the diligent will not be poor?
    Yes I agree with that statement. With the right training and attitude many so-called poor people could experience social mobility.

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  8. With reference to Trinidad and Tobago in particular, i definitely think that in some aspects, poverty is as a result of laziness and slothfulness. There are a number of programs that provide opportunities for citizens to educate themselves, or prepare them with the necessary skills to get employment. Yet many refuse and complain. I belive our society has a give-it-to-me mentality and a get-rich-quick one as well, neglecting to realise that hard work and diligence is required of them. I believe that if individuals would stop resting on their laurels and start wroking to better themselves, them poverty can be reduced.

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  9. I must agree with Cherisse Williams that “poverty is as a result of laziness and slothfulness”. For way too long Trinidadians has been spoon feed, and as a result we are now reaping the reward for such. Generation after generation the cry is “blame the government”, and we know who else, besides ourselves. I fully am aware of the role and responsibilities of the state; however I am much more enlighten with what we should do for ourselves as mere human beings.
    We as a society lack self motivation and refuse to encourage our self to be independent and make a way where it seems possible. I believe that social programmes should be on a temporary basis, allowing individuals to help themselves along the way, so that they can provide for themselves and family, thus breaking the evil cycle of poverty.

    Noel Antoine

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  10. According to Social Development,
    “Poverty is hunger. Poverty is lack of shelter. Poverty is being sick and not being able to see a doctor. Poverty is not having access to school and not knowing how to read. Poverty is not having a job, is fear for the future, living one day at a time.
    Poverty has many faces, changing from place to place and across time, and has been described in many ways. Most often, poverty is a situation people want to escape. So poverty is a call to action -- for the poor and the wealthy alike -- a call to change the world so that many more may have enough to eat, adequate shelter, access to education and health, protection from violence, and a voice in what happens in their communities.”

    Due to the difinition given above i beleve that The Poor and Poverty are the same, some people in society choose to say in certain conditions, because they refuse to work hard, and for some it is just unfortunate that they cant help the postion or hand they were dealt..... and i also agree with Kerese that some trini's have the give meh mentality.

    The poor we will have with us always, i agree but i still beleive we can curb it.

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  11. Jesus said..."Broad is the way that leads to distruction, and narrow is way to eternal life, and few there be that find it". Yet Jesus expects us to witness and save the lost.... and in the same way he would not expect us to embrace poverty.






    I dont think that poverty eradication is a waste of time, because if we dont eradicate the problem we would be in a worst postion are in presently. What we need to do is continue to EDUCATE THE PEOPLE and hope that more of them take heed, to whats going on.

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  12. When Jesus said that "The poor you would have with you always" I do not believe that He meant that poverty and eradication is a waste of time. I,think that Jesus was simply making a statement about the act of pouring the perfume onto His feet,because the gesture would never happen again. On the other hand He was also telling them that they would have many opportunities to do good to the poor. Therefore eradicating poverty will never be a waste of time.

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  13. A very good friend once told me,that every body who live in poverty,should be consider poor and those who are poor, must not been seen as living in poverty. Your question Sir, brought this statement back to my mind. To me, there is a very thin line between the two. For instant, when I look at people who is receiving very low income, and are unable to provide many of the necessary basic needs for self and family, these people I consider to be poor(the working poor). On the other hand people living in poverty are those who cannot even provide the basic human needs for self and family.God help them.

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  14. I think that the diligent will not be poor because Sir, look at the outcome of your own life and your brothers life. With hard work and God nothing is impossible.

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  15. I agree that social exclusion is a fancy name designed to cloud the real issues of poverty. People living in poverty I, believe is very conscious of the fact that they are dirt poor and that is a stigma many may have to live with unless help comes their way.

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  16. Marilyn said:
    I believe that the word ‘poor’ is another word that can be used for the word ’poverty’. For example, poor is an adjective. It means lacking means of comfortable subsistence. Poverty is the noun that describes the state of being poor or lack of resources to provide material needs or comfort. The word ‘poor’ is a relative term. One can have a lot of money in the bank and yet can be considered poor. Poverty on the other hand involves more than material position.

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  17. Marilyn said:
    I do not believe that poverty eradication is a waste of time. I believe that every society should have some form of organized structure that can assist the poor and needy of the society. When Jesus said ”the poor we will have always”, He was saying as stated in Deuteronomy 15:11 “There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be open handed toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land”. The Bible supports an organized system that is geared to assist the poor and needy. In Deuteronomy 14:28, God told the people to use their tithe every third year to assist those who were helpless, hungry and poor. This regulation was design to eradicate poverty in the land.

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  18. Marilyn said:
    I believe some people may find themselves in a position where they are not being able to adequately provide for their basic needs. This is because of some physical or mental challenges. On the other hand there are those who choose to remain in their poverty condition because of a mindset or mere laziness. According to Proverbs 10:15, it states, “The wealth of the rich is their fortified city, but poverty is the ruin of the poor”( NIV). The poor ruin of the poor is their poverty. Poverty sometimes follows poverty and it is so difficult to break the cycle. Some people who grow in poverty may even lack the possible skills that would enable them to come out of poverty.

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  19. I agree with Cherrise, I also believe that Trinidad and Tobago has been blessed with many opportunities to better themselves as a result of the various programs and that it is utter laziness as to why some people don't take advantage of them, however I must also say that there are some cases that we may not know of where people are so poor that they don't even have access to the information out there. Personally I do not believe that poverty eradication is a waste of time because although we may never completely get rid of poverty at least we can try to see how best we can decrease the number of people in that position.

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  20. The words poor and poverty are used interchangeably. I do not believe it should be used that way. I think you can be poor yet not living in poverty. Poverty can be eradicated to some extent however the poor and poverty will always be /live among us. I agree that the diligent will not be poor, because through hard work and sacrifice one can come out from under the banner of being poor. My grandfather used to always say"By the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread" Mc Lawrence Markie Brereton.

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  21. I believe that poor signifies your present financil status but when you speak of poverty it speaks of a frame of mind, a lifestyle.I believe that poverty can be seen as laziness and slothfulness because when considering the opportunity of elevating yourself but when you fail to do so and chose to remain in the same position I think it is fear to say that some states of poverty stems from laziness and slothfulness.

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  22. Jesus comments on having the poor always was in response to the disciples secret misjudgement on wastage. While there are efforts and programs designed to eradicate poverty, the poor will always have. People are poor for different reasons; some because of their own doing and others because of unfortunate circumstances. There is a big difference between poverty and being poor. Poverty comes with a mindset; the poor inherited it. I agree that poverty is an excuse for laziness and slothfulness. Based on biblical principles, the diligent will not be poor.

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  23. Crime and Deviance

    Has the deviant made the society or the socity the deviant? Deviance has become relative because of the way society sees it. This is contrary to the way God sees it. Standards shifts based on society's culture and customs. Sin is missing the mark. That is God's standard, and not society's. In some societies, it is deviant to worship God. Is that being relative?

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  24. Poverty eradication can be seen as a waste of time if the persons involve makes a conscience decision to remain in their present state. However it does not reject the reality that it can be done.Two of the streams that make this possible are Education and Inspiration. Once someone is inspired to reach forward and educated alone the lines poverty eradication is possible.

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  25. I believe that poverty can be reduced and not eliminated, however i think that its a cycle since there a lot of people who have made a decision to strive for a better life, the power of choice allows us to make decisions for transformation. I view it as a cycle since those who have made the decision for a differnce can testify to a former life of poverty, even some of us who may have had some hard times in our early life, and by making something of ourselves we have today a better quality of life for ourselves and our children.

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  26. Poverty is a side effect of capitalism. Most societies today follow the structure of capitalism so it is practically impossible to eliminate this social ill. The ruling class will continue to get richer and more selfish for as long as they could. They are the more powerful individuals and influence government polices which work more in their favor and less to benefit poor citizens. To empower the working class will benefit society however it will affect the power of the ruling class. As such no steps will be used to stop poverty. But governments will use strategies to make the working class "believe" that the issue is being addressed
    Tessa

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  27. Jesus said that "The Poor you would have with you always". Does that mean that poverty eradication is a waste of time?

    In support of our debate presented last week, I must reiterate that poverty eradication is a dream, and not a realistic expectation. I do not think that poverty will ever be totally eliminated, not simply because of the biblical reference but because the causes of poverty are so multifaceted that addressing all of them effectively may not be entirely possible. The next issue questions whether society as a whole wants to eradicate poverty. I believe poverty eradication requires a collective effort on the part of governments and all members of society. I am yet to believe that this is the case, as much as they may see the need to help the poor. I still applaud the efforts of many countries and societies who have embarked on poverty eradication ventures. I would not say however that poverty eradication is a waste of time. I say this because attempts to eradicate poverty in the past have resulted in major reductions in the poverty rate, which shows that there are results to their efforts.

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  28. Does that mean poverty eradication is a waste of time?
    In light of the above statement, taken from the scriptures clearly stated that, Jesus said, " that the poor you'll always have with you," which can make my response a bit difficult, to wonder, if poverty irradication is a waste of time.According to Jesus statement, it may very well be pertaing to more than one meaning. Since, he may have also used that statement in two context. One might be through the eyes of the human heart as saying " blessed are the poor in heart" refering to those who are living a true christian life.
    Then on the other hand, he might have also been addressing the issue of poverty as a general statement through prophesy. He knowing that throughout the years the poor will always be a part of the communities and society. Many of those, who he refered too was that of beggers/ destitutes, and who would be dependant on that of their basic needs. Therefore,here in Sweet T&T there is belief that poverty can and has been irradicated to some extent. But like the scripture said, there is certainly no secret, as it reminds us on the constant reality of poor people again and again rising up in Society.
    This whole system tends to operate as a cycle,going round and round through generation after generation in the same or similar manner. Trying to determine if poverty eradication is really a waste of time.For reasons seeing,that it is a continued recurrance year after year.
    Hence, I feel convince that here in T&T country, some people become poor for a season and others a lifetime. So with that in my mind total irradication seems lesser and lesser possible at this point time.


    The question is, if poor and poverty are the same?
    To me poor and proverty are not exactly the same,what they are is similar to that of a family who relate. We all know that there are many families who relate in one way or the next,but diagree in other ways. Well, similarly those who are poor and those who live all their lives in poverty, lack basic needs. However when we look at their short term and long term needs, they may have some similarities and effects. Take for instance, a person who is considered poor, might not be able to have any access to all those basic necessities, that they is needed to be luxurious or matetially prosperous, but could some day have the opportunity presented to them,if they are mentally motivated or is skilled in a particular field and wants to move up in live. So whether it be a job that they needed to have or perhaps to survive a broken marriage with children on their own, the fact remains that there poor situation can still change at some time. It is true some may argue that the same can be said for one living in poverty. Yes, but many a time poverty is found and influenced amongst a particular group or place of an envirnment where those people, do not only lack their basic needs, but that they live under such terrible conditions,that it seems almost hope less to restore.




    What about Social Exclution is a fancy name designed to cloud the real issues of poverty or is it a progressive name including the poor and more?
    Social exclusion is designed to cloud the real issues of poverty,or is it progressive including the poor and more.Many people have blamed the state, according to reseachers who made emphasis that society has failed to irradicate poverty and social exclution. However,"Maxist" believe that poverty and social exclution are inherent and inevirtable consequences of capitalism, unless there is to be total transformation so therefore, no matter how the presence of poverty is discribed, it can't be ignored that it is a real issue that confronts us throughout society regardless to creed or race old/ young the fact of the matter is that we can find a way to work around it. So we can iliminate its presence.

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  29. Poverty and the eradication, like all other efforts, such as crime, discrimination, racism as espoused by governments and global leaders using the term eradication, which in my view is like not being in touch or aware of the state of human nature and systems when used!!! or could it be just mentioned to give the masses false hope. Do these people really want to help eradicate poverty or can they? I think that poverty can be used to gain political mileage, the lower echelons of society are always placed in a position of want and yes those needs are delivered, but in meager amounts to create dependency by government for continued governance.

    I remain constant in my view that the only real answer to this issue is through training and development, all through which can be achieved through education. It is therefore the divine will power that was given to all mankind to combat the oppression for betterment if they so chooses, for those who were born into poverty conditions, yet they are not isolated nor unexposed as to the way of life of others and if they are not so affected to question and seek for themselves, then therein lies both the answer and problem.

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  30. Jesus' statement was in no way an indication that people should always be poor. Jesus' reference was simply to explain that He would be leaving and the poor who were there would be there after He has gone. The opportunity to help the poor will present itself atnother time. Since we live in a capitalist society where divisions are real, the poor will always be there. Poverty eradication is not a waste of time. Society must do all it can to make life easier for the less fortunate. The society is usually the cause of poverty in the first place. Poverty eradication is a necessity.

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  31. I think that being slothful can lead to being poor, however sometimes people are working day in and day out trying to provide for their family but it just is not enough. I think it depends on where the person works and how far the money has to stretch. I do believe that one can do what needs to be done by getting a better education to get more money but at the end of the day a person needs money to go to school as well. So yes i believe it is true that slothfulness leads to poverty but sometimes a person can be a victim of circumstance

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  32. Answering the first part of the question, i do not believe that poverty eradication is a waste of time because people who need help, accept the help that is given to them. Yes, the poor may always be with us but I believe that it is their personal choice to remain poor in the midst of the eradication efforts that are afforded to them. Why? Sometimes it can be pride thats stopping them or even ignorance. It is my hope that one day poverty would be gone!

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  33. deligence does not necessarily mean that one is going to work there way out of a state of poverty, if the definition that were using for poverty is statint that is is when one is in a state of deprivation and insufficency then to clame that one can ever all can achieve a social strat that is equal across the bord in this capitalist society is heracy.

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  34. solomon spoke of wisdom and its benifits in many of his proverbs, if its one thing that can be concluded form these provebs is that the wisdom is the ability to effectively apply that which you have into a formula that is going to supply you with some form of mobility in the end. this was a testimony of solomon's wisdom, if digent hands is , say a formular that is going to cure poverty, then im just saying that their are other variables that needs to be taken into consideration to bring about the desired result. not being slutful os not the bottom line.

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  35. the question to ask is in waht contect was jesus speakin when he said the poor will always be with us, it think to make a statement and coming to such a conclusion an in the process make such a desision would be alittle hasty, even thought the less portunate in terms of persons that have material mobility will always be on earth, does that mean that man should live disregarding these individuals, because i am sure that something can definitly be done to atleast shiff the bar or ulter the state that the lest fortunate people are presently in.

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  36. I do not believe that trying to eradicate poverty is a waste of time because I do not think that any one wants to be poor and people are poor not by choice, different circumstances just happens. I believe people who are poor are those who lack certain basic necessities and people who live in poverty are generally without everything at all times were as the poor only lack some. Social exclusion is geared to not make anyone of a lesser status feel bad because of how much or money or lack of they have. This question can be answer with a yes and no answer because some people throughout their lives have a hard time and some get so relaxed in their position that they never move.

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  37. I agree with Michael....distinguising why people are poor is two-fold. It is a result of slothfulness as well as circumstances beyond the individuals control.

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  38. I believe because of the way the social stratification systems are designed, there will always be the poor and in the same regard, the rich. The social classes are constructed and managed in such a way that makes it difficult for any switching between them. It is also naturally more possible to become poor than for one to become rich.

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  39. The ruling class possesses the factors of production (land, capital, labour, power etc) and therefore rule over the subject class. So there is constant conflict between the two. Since the ruling class is in control of the many institutions and organizations in society the miserable cycle will always continue.

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  40. Now I do believe that the levels of poverty can be managed and corrected, but it is not my belief that poverty can be totally eradicated. There are some groups in society that are comforted in their state and are too slothful to make an effort to work and come out of a lifestyle of poverty. You may give them $500,000.00 and in two years time they will be in lack and poor once again.

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  41. Who did Jesus tell that the poor would be with them always? I missed Trinidad or the universal church in that statement. Poverty eradication is only possible when everyone takes responsibility for it. It is unreasonable to expect that we all start off at vastly different starting points and yet have an equal chance of finishing at the same point.

    Very key issues such as resources, availability of mechanisms that support the maximum benefits of education, subsequent work opportunities, neighbourhoods and the quality of family life which is being impacted on all of the above and impacting them as well, place the poor in a significantly disadvantaged starting point.

    That there are a handful of people that are able through wider exposure, external support, or blinded motivation to escape the grips of poverty, should not be used as a standard to condemn those that are not as fortunate.

    The society as a whole, has to take the hand of their poorer counterparts, and teach them, support them, reward their efforts, train them, subsidize them during their progress.

    Thankfully in Trinidad we seem to be getting the hang of it, so that once a person makes it passed the CXC level, a well balanced support system is available to support the acquisition of a first degree. If this principle is replicated, monitored and revised in the different essential areas, there is definitely hope for the eradication of poverty

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  42. I do not believe that poverty can be eradicated and its not a waste of time in trying to.In trying to eradicate poverty Man has always been searching, trough this Scientists have found methods on how to alleviate the suffering of the poor.Yes, Jesus says that the poor we will have always,but he also says to feed the hungry clothed the naked, and shelter the homeless. As long as poverty exists, trying to eradicate is not a waste of time.

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